Emma Williams Helping PhDs to Thrive Beyond Academia

Nigel Rawlins: Emma, welcome to the Wisepreneurs podcast. Would you like to tell us something about yourself and where you're from?

Emma Williams: So thank you for having me, it's very exciting. I am an ex academic who has had her own business now for 15 years. I'm based just south of Cambridge in the UK, and we are currently basking in the world's worst summer.

Nigel Rawlins:

Now, on LinkedIn, you call yourself Emma, the nerd, coach, physicist and PhD.

Emma Williams: So, self confession, I am a little bit of a nerd. I love sci fi, can recite most of the Star Wars films. my little, appellation of the nerd coach refers to me, but also, a lot of people who I work with are very, bright, sparky, PhD plus people in universities.

I tend to work majority with STEM people just because there are more of those in our universities, at that PhD plus level. They do tend to be a little bit nerdy. They tend to resonate with that nerd coach. A long time ago, when dinosaurs roamed the earth, I did a degree in physics at Cambridge, but I am super chatty so don't turn off now. and then moved into a PhD looking at Magnetic Resonance Imaging. So, I was looking at scanning the brain, something that we have in hospitals, but I was on the research end of that looking at brain function.

So that was my PhD. And then I did, three and a half years postdoctoral research at the teaching hospital here in Cambridge. So the very mighty Addenbrookes Hospital.

Nigel Rawlins: And , do you work in a university as well?

Emma Williams: Yes. So, the teaching hospital is part and parcel of the university. They're sort of intermingled. my boss was a neurosurgeon, but my, immediate, supervisor was an academic. so I was going down the academic route. I wanted to stay in academia. I applied for fellowships and various other things that academics do,

but decided. that academia wasn't for me about three and a half years in. it was a massive decision. I'd always wanted to be, since I was little, a researcher, I must've been an incredibly nerdy child. But that's what he wanted to be. And my parents put up with this and took me to all sorts of museums, but fab parents.

But I kind of hit the three year mark in my postdoc and it just wasn't for me. There was a lot of politics, which was part and parcel of universities. Universities are full of politics. I didn't get a couple of fellowships that I applied for.

I wanted to do something else, but I wasn't sure what that looked like. I had all these thoughts going around my head, then I fell pregnant with my first boy, who's now a strapping lad.

So that was gonna force some sort of change, but whilst I was pregnant I broke my leg,

so got signed off work because I couldn't move, couldn't do pregnancy and crutches. So I had enforced reflection time and I think time to reflect on where we're at in our careers and, you know, kind of really do that hard thinking. It's easy to push to the side. It's easy to go, Oh, I'll do that later.

Or, you know, it's not an urgent task. I had six weeks sat on my bum having to, think, to cut a long story short. I decided that I wanted to do something else. I wasn't sure what that was. So I stayed at home, with Ben, for the first eight to nine months and then saw an opportunity to work in the university.

So in a sector that I knew, but in a very different arena, providing training, for PhDs and postdocs. Thought I'd escape the university Universities are quite big. Cambridge is a big university around here, so it drew me back in.

Nigel Rawlins: I did something similar. I was an elementary school or primary school teacher in Australia for 16 years before I quit and jumped out to start a business. The only problem was I had no idea what business that was and I had already jumped, which is crazy.

So what led you, 15 years ago to start your own business and what was that about?

Emma Williams: So when I moved into the professional services side of the university, it was a new arena for me. It was about training and development, learning and development. It's something that people don't actively choose. No one grows up going, what, I really want to be a trainer. It's not like, a truck driver or a bin lorry man or anything like that, it's not a visible profession.

But I really loved it. and what really ignited my passion was being able to see those light bulbs go on for the people. So, I loved my job. I was good at it. I then got promoted. And I got promoted to be effectively head of the section. But I spent a large amount of time in committee meetings. And university committee meetings really don't do it for me.

There are a lot of them. And, I felt that I was at home, in the office, doing the paperwork, and my team were out, as I perceived it, having fun. So they were doing the training, the development. They were seeing those lightbulbs, whereas I was sitting, staring at committee papers. And it was in one of those committee meetings where, and I think we all have these sort of trigger moments in our careers, where someone probably just quite flippantly was, speaking and they said, we come to work because we love it.

And it was like being smacked by a double decker bus. Imagine a big, red, iconic London bus. It felt like I'd been hit by one of those, and I just sat there and realized actually, I don't love it. At which point, you can either go down the despair route or you can go, I have to do something about it.

So very much the proactive step of, okay, what am I going to do? I'd taken the promotion as, I talk about travelator decisions. So, you know, those flat escalators that you get in airports that you jump on with your suitcase and you go off into the distance and everyone else is actually walking faster either side.

But anyway, there's one travelator, there's three or four steps on normal ground and then there's another one. So that automatic career decision is never a great one. Whereas, where the three or four steps on real ground are, where the gates are, so you could go off to all sorts of marvellous destinations and yet you've got a travelator right in front of you.

So I'd made automatic decisions to get to that point and I was determined not to do that again. I looked at everything. I forced that wide open scan. I opened our, this was how long this was ago, because I opened the newspaper, like a physical newspaper, and read the jobs advert.

And in Cambridge, our newspaper is full of, a huge variety of things from, professor at the university to, working in a coffee shop. There were huge, range of jobs and I'm forced myself to look at every single one. If I didn't understand a title, I drilled into it.

Boy, did I find a lot of jobs I didn't want to do. That was, the big piece of learning. There were a lot of jobs out there. A lot of jobs that I could do, but then that extra filter of, no, I don't want to do that. So I had that inkling of wanting to go out by myself and do the training and development that I loved, but under my own banner.

But I didn't want to make that default decision, so I looked at everything else. Nothing else was as attractive as going out by myself. So that's why I made that decision. I did have some work lined up, so a colleague had gone to work for another university, so they'd, given me some work. But I did, a bit like you Nigel, I felt that I was just leaping into not quite the void.

I did have some work lined up but it was still that massive leap and you know, kind of that, yeah, the little gut wrenching feeling somewhere inside, I think.

Nigel Rawlins: I think it's a bit scary because, you know, at least if you've got a job, there's a regular paycheck coming in. Whereas when you work for yourself, you've got to earn the money first and then get paid and pay for your expenses. It's not as simple anymore. do you miss anything from the old days?

Emma Williams: What do I miss? I think I miss, because I'm a solopreneur, I miss having a team. I absolutely do. You know, I had an amazing team. That wasn't what I left. So team, if you're listening, you were great. I miss those, standing around the kettle moments, you know, we had a very slow kettle, but it was great for conversations.

I miss that, interaction, just being able to bounce ideas off. That was the one thing that actually for getting into business, I was probably quite slow off the mark on this, but I really needed that sounding board, those colleagues, if you like, even though I was in my own business.

So I sought, eventually sought those out. So there's a, in the UK, there's a great, organization run by Sharon Gaskin for trainers, called the Trainers Training Company. And, she ran events and I very timidly turned up to one. And it was full of people like me. They were all doing different sorts of training, but they were all freelance.

We all had the same problems. We were all seeking the best accountant in the world. So it was lovely to just immerse yourself into that. Again, having that team around you, so people who knew what was going on, you didn't have to explain the not so tragic backstory. But, yeah, that support network I think was really pivotal and I'm sad to say that I probably found that about two, three years into my business and I wish I'd thought something like that out at the start, that would just have been that extra support network.

Nigel Rawlins: I was very lucky. I bumped into a mentor who helped me, do what I now do. But, the podcast and the Wisepreneurs is like a project, a side project, but it's taking up all my time. Okay. So what is the business you're in now?

Emma Williams: So, I coach, write speak and train, brainy people. So usually post PhD, I create spaces for them to help them move on. So universities employ me to come and talk and work with their researchers.

And, I specialise in that career transition. I think for me, that's really the interesting bit. So, people who might want to stay in academia, but trying to make that next step is quite tough. In academia, there are lots of PhD students and lots of postdocs, but there aren't that many permanent tenure track type positions.

I help people do that, or the majority of people, because there aren't so many letterships, have to go out into the real world. So I help them transition into, finding things that they want to do, that they're going to move forward proactively, positively.

And when we manage to work together and do that, that's really the buzz that I get out of it.

Nigel Rawlins: In terms of universities, obviously we're talking some very academic people. I'm hoping that means they're intelligent as well. But, what's going on in the universities, they can't keep these people employed.

Because obviously they're very bright.

Emma Williams: Yes. extremely bright. Sometimes very brainy, but perhaps with not too much common sense, or at least an understanding of life outside academia. Academia at the minute, if we think of it as a very flat pyramid, we need, certainly in STEM, we need a lot of people to do the research. biological sciences, we need people to do pipetting, and various other things.

So it's quite labour intensive. The robots haven't quite taken over yet. Give it time. But it's quite labour intensive at that point. If you think about a lecture hall and teaching undergraduates, you need one person at the front and you can stack your lecture hall with two, three hundred people.

So, you know, to some extent it's a numbers game. In the UK our university system is strapped for cash at the minute. The people that I work with are employed on research grants. But those come from, research funders, in the main taxpayer's money. But they sit within a university that is largely supported by an undergraduate population as well.

So, we can't, take away the teaching side of the university from the research side. They are intermingled, because they have that symbiotic relationship, with the money. In the UK, we're struggling at the moment, or certainly some universities are with finances, and that's partly because of our visa outlook, and so we can't get foreign students in and we can charge a bit more for those, so that's affecting, finances.

But also just the general downturn in the economy has, affected tax income and therefore, research income into universities. So, it's a difficult place to be at the minute in academia. I think it's probably a little bit more difficult than when I came out with my, PhD in Postdoc. in intervening, 30 years, almost.

Nigel Rawlins: So would you say that, these, very bright people have got student debts as well?

Emma Williams: Yeah, huge student debt. So that's, that's the other massive thing that's changed since I went to university, I was lucky enough to get a grant. We were pretty much the end of students with grants. So my kids, two of whom, well one's just finished uni, he's now a teacher, and the other one is still going through, third one is still debating on the university, but he's looking at a wall of debt that is probably, you know, 70, 80k,

Nigel Rawlins: That's pounds.

Emma Williams: It starts in pounds.

the King's pounds. So absolutely, I think, you know, people coming out of university have got that debt. so to do further study.

So if you're coming out with your bachelor's or integrated master's and you're looking at a PhD, that's another three years on stipend. You can live on it just about, but you're not going to get rich. And then transitioning into a postdoc, you're probably on around, 40, 000 pounds, which is an okay salary, but is perhaps not as much as you could get elsewhere with that level of, skills and experience. So it's an interesting one. People cling to academia because I think that's what they know, but financially it's probably not, a wise move, especially thinking about paying back that debt.

Nigel Rawlins: I encouraged both my boys to become tradesmen.

Emma Williams: hmm.

And

Nigel Rawlins: both have done very well. They're still young, very well financially, you know, owning properties, earning good money and, enjoying their lives, and no debt.

Oh, apart from the housing loan, whereas my daughter, had, a sociology degree and still, I think she's got some debt to pay But it's very difficult, you know, making that decision.

So obviously the people you're working with are very bright. So they find it probably quite easy to do their studies. So what can you do with them? You mentioned before, it's basically STEM people. So science people you're working with, and they've either got to make a decision to transition into industry.

So how does that work?

Emma Williams: Some inner obstacles. So they're very, very bright and largely they've been on this track for a long time. So there's a big, amount of that sunk cost fallacy, which is when we get dragged down by the previous baggage. So a simple example would be, you know, you've invested, £10 in a concert ticket.

And then, for a band that were okay. And then someone else gives you a ticket. worth £100 but they're gifting it to you for a band that you really want to see on the same night and there is something about our brains that go but I've paid £10 for this ticket so I'm gonna go and see the band that I don't really want to see despite having the free ticket.

These people do that with their careers. So they go, well, I've been here so long, they've probably done, if they're in the uk, they've done four year degree, probably with an integrated masters. They might then have gone on and done another masters. I work with people who've got more degrees than fingers sometimes.

And then they'll go on and do a PhD. And in the UK a PhD takes about four years. So, they're already, you know, kind of looking at a good nine, ten years, even more if they've come from perhaps the States or Europe into the UK system, of being a physicist, a chemist, whatever it is, and to some extent that's all they know, but also it's like, I've spent so long getting here, surely I should stay, surely I should make the most of it. And that mental switch of moving is actually making the most of it, as opposed to staying, is a very human one that we struggle with. So that sunk cost fallacy. I think people are scared of the unknown,

so they just don't know what's out there. They've been in academia, I talk about academia being the itchy, scratchy comfort blanket. So we know it and we might wrap it around us. We might moan about it. It's got some itchy bits,

you know, they kind of dragged them around and all sorts of things. but we know it and we love it. And it gives us a sense of who we are. So there is a big thing about identity, but we need to sort of take the blanket off a little bit, peek out and see what's out there.

Every day they do research into something really quite difficult. The number of different researchers that I work that's part of what I love about my job is that I get to hear all sorts of people's research. So I primarily work with STEM, though I have done sort of arts and

I once worked with someone who was doing a PhD on London street food. And it was like, that is the one to get funded for, you know, three years hot dinners, basically. Um,

Nigel Rawlins: It sounds like they're about 30 years of age, and they've never been out of education, so, another big leap.

Emma Williams: it is a big leap. And, if I'm working with postdoctoral researchers, then they're in that middle of that perfect storm in their lives of, wanting to perhaps move on, but also they might have a family, they're looking to perhaps settle down. The researcher population are highly mobile because they're on fixed term contracts that they have to move around.

They might want to settle down, somewhere. they might have, parents who need a bit more attention, and because they're a very international population, that might mean, heading closer to home, wherever home might be. So there's a lot going on in their lives at that point.

I remember being, I think by the time I was 30, I had one small child, another one on the way. We just, bought our first house. There was a lot going on in our world. And then you're making a pivotal career decision on top. I think those sort of crux moments come at different points.

I think now in business, my kids, I was about to say leave home, but they can't afford houses.

Nigel Rawlins: Same here in Australia.

Emma Williams: They're here, but they are, starting to enter the world of work. The youngest is about to go to uni, so for me, that's a different chapter and I think that's, another transition point.

But certainly to the people I work with, there's a lot boiling up in their lives. And that's, part and parcel of that. They've been a long time there, they're usually 28, 30 by the time I'm working with them. So yeah, it's a long old road.

Nigel Rawlins: Well, I see the same thing, with, non academics as well, who are working in a job. They're professionals, but they're not enjoying it anymore. And that's the other difficulty they've got. If you're earning good money, you've got a mortgage on your house, it's hard to leave that and do something else.

So, It's obvious that if they were trying to do this on their own, you'd be lost because where do you look? Where's the transition? What are the steps you take to get somewhere? And how do you apply for a real job when you've been in academia? So how do you help them?

Emma Williams: So we usually start, start with where they're at, obviously. Getting them to look at, three really important threads. so the first one is, what I call the gold thread of their values. So what's actually important to them?

What about that is important to you? And quite often it's, things of being able to use their brain, having a certain amount of autonomy, Usually wanting to do something great for the planet or the people stood on it, you know, they're extremely, committed people that I work with. So we really drum down into their values and that golden thread, I think without understanding our values and what makes us tick inside at this point, not what made us tick when we started our role.

That is really important and it's something that I think people wrestle with. I think our values, certainly when I was first in the world of development and came across, this sort of thing, it felt like catching mist or catching clouds. It was like, how do I, pin down who I am into, I don't know, five magic words.

It was really hard, but it is something that I force myself now to do. It used to be forcing it. Now I'm looking forward to that process. So I've just redone my personal values as part of a rebranding exercise. And that autonomy is still there. Creativity is a huge thing that I value. and being able to help people.

So those are probably my top three. But getting them to understand what their golden thread is. They want to get on and find a job and it's like, no, hang on, let's do the back work here. We've got to get a really concrete foundation. Otherwise you're going to choose something that is just a default choice, that you feel that you should make.

And that's just plain bonkers. So, golden thread, really important. The next one, especially for brainy, sparkly people, is the steel thread of their skills and their strengths. So they are great at a great many things. They're highly literate. They spend their lives communicating in written form through journal articles and the like, but also at conferences.

So they're usually pretty adept at communicating. They're highly numerate. Even my fantastic researchers in humanities and the arts because they wrestle with data all the time. So they've got huge skills in sort of data analysis. They're project managers. If you've done a PhD, you've solo managed a project for four years with all the catastrophes en route.

And their biggest skill, I think, is just having that, ability to find out. So I could give them a problem, and they would start thinking about, well, where would I go for that? Even if it's not in their field, they've just got that knack and they don't realize that's a skill.

So when I talk about their steel thread, I'm talking about their strengths because they're great at lots of things. I really like the Marcus Buckingham definition of strengths, which is those skills that make us feel strong. So, I did a degree in physics. I'm highly numerate. If you give me a day full of maths, there isn't enough chocolate and coffee in the world, Nigel, to keep me going.

It's really not going to fill me with joy. If you give me some creative problem solving to do, I haven't looked at the clock, you know, my coffee's gone cold. I'm in flow. And so it's really getting them to, almost giving them permission to say, these are the things that you love doing. Where can we find those in the world to work? So we've got gold, we've got steel. And then the final one is perhaps the, the most important is the purple one. So the purple thread is courage and they've got to have that ability to go for it. And I think, you know, when you were saying that you'd left your, teaching post and leapt into the void, I think that leap needs, you know, it's a courageous thing to do. But it's also a dignified thing to do. So the reason that I colored it purple was thinking about the suffragettes. So it's tied into dignity and courage and you're too talented to be stuck. You know, if you're stuck and you're miserable, then give yourself that permission to leap forward and do something for yourself.

The only person who's ever going to prioritize your career is you. You might have the most fantastically supported partner, or mentor, but you have to make the leap and it's for you that you're doing that. That's where we start is those three threads.

Nigel Rawlins: I was gonna say that is so applicable to everybody too.

Emma Williams: Yeah, absolutely.

Nigel Rawlins: More dangerous for these people because they're really in a dead end, aren't they really? They're really going nowhere. And that's the problem. And they're so talented, whereas if at least you're in a job, you've got some sort of continuity provided, not in a precarious, profession.

So where do some of these people go?

Emma Williams: We need these bright, sparky people everywhere. Currently we're facing down an election, seemingly like the rest of the world, in the UK, we really need people in politics who understand graphs.

Nigel Rawlins: No.

Emma Williams: We'll be here all day. So we need them in every aspect of our nation's economy.

Industry. takes, a big chunk and, certainly around where we are, we're a big hot spot for, big pharma. They absorb a lot of post docs, so, industry take a good lion's share, but then when I'm working with researchers, they go, Oh, I've got to move into industry.

And like, well, or which industry? You know, I think when they see it, I see those, you know, the old fashioned picture of a factory with the slopey roof in the big chimney, you know, the standard clip art of industry. They almost see that in their eyes and like industry's much more varied than that, you know, kind of, there are, there are the big AstraZeneca's of this world, there are the big finance houses, but there are the startups that can be, extremely exciting to work with. Interestingly with that, thinking about that entrepreneurship, a lot of them think, oh, but isn't that really risky in London?

The university is offering you 18 months contract, whereas a startup that's been around for a couple of years probably has more longevity than the 18 months. So I think there is something about risk and reward that needs to be happening in that. But other people go into sort of government policy, the civil service.

Still take, you know, quite a, a good chunk of, researchers. One of my personal soapbox is encouraging people to think about going, into either their own business or other startup businesses. I think it's, an amazingly exciting thing to do. And provide some of those values, you know, kind of, it's autonomous, it's creative.

If you're in a small firm, you are, and Nigel, I'm sure you know. We have to do everything, don't we?

Nigel Rawlins: Yep.

Emma Williams: You know, I'm my marketing department, but I'm also my accounts department. And I'm more the coffee girl than anything else.

Nigel Rawlins: Well, we should quickly mention coffee. Why is that important to you? It's because you've got it under your name or who you are.

Emma Williams: Yeah. I've now managed to train, like, my successful branding was when I turned up at a client and they went, Oh, you love coffee. Should we go and get the good stuff? Cause this stuff's rubbish. And I'm like, yes, I've made it. I've actually managed to do a little bit of branding. but I, I, yeah, I am. yeah, very coffee fuelled.

So, it's early in the morning here for me, so I've had a coffee, but, and I've named my coffee machine. He's called Jacob. He's my best friend, because it's usually just me and him and the house. Yeah, so coffee, coffee does make me tick, but also I think it, it comes back to that social aspect of, you know, I'm in the UK, so we have a cuppa.

With people. C U P P A. We all have a cuppa. Hopefully when I'm coaching people, I'm bringing that friendly, relaxed, empathetic, style that you get when you're having a cup of tea with someone. When you're working through some big stuff, You kind of need that, space to care.

So I'm very much that, that's woven through who I am and how I approach, moving on. Because it's a big thing.

Nigel Rawlins: So what happened to that awful tea they used to make, you know? It's either too strong or milky sort of horrible

Emma Williams: Yeah, and because I'm a self confessed coffee drinker, when I make tea for, whoever's coming around, it's like, right, here's the tea and here's the milk, you do your thing.

Nigel Rawlins: Yes,

Emma Williams: Because, getting in the way of the wrong colour tea for a British person is, kind of the bad, bad side of that.

Nigel Rawlins: I was in England somebody made me a cup of tea. And I normally have black tea and black coffee. And they could not understand that somebody could drink black tea. They wanted to put lemon in it and sugar in it.

Emma Williams: Yeah.

Nigel Rawlins: in Australia, we go camping and you can't always take milk with you.

So I got used to black stuff. I recently, read an article, by Steven Johnson, the ideas guy and he was that, there's a problem in, the sciences in terms of they don't need so many people in technology anymore.

But because of AI, they're finding that people who are really good communicators and in the humanities, can actually work really well with AI, because it doesn't communicate really well and it doesn't have a lot of cultural understanding. Whereas if you have a humanities background or you've got a good communication background, you can actually communicate and be helpful with AI, especially as it's spreading all through industry. I mean, I use it all day now. I'm using it for all sorts of things to save myself time, to fix stuff up, tell me about stuff, interpret stuff, tell me how to automate stuff. It gives me all the instructions, you know, how to rewrite that paragraph 15 times till I get it right.

Are you finding that's going on with AI yet? Or that is a demand that you're hearing?

Emma Williams: I think I have a love hate relationship with it. When I'm stuck, absolutely getting on the AI and just saying, right, give me three pointers for that and quite often I think I just need that little injection and then I'm off to the

races.so it's great for getting over that blank, blank page syndrome.

But then I sort of get into it and then I slowly become terrified about it because it's Oh, this is very clever. And so I think there has to be a balance where I've seen it work really well in people's careers is, that sort of pump priming of the AI.

Nigel Rawlins: that's what I meant.

Emma Williams: Here's my LinkedIn profile. Here's some writing that I've done. Here's, some jobs that I'm interested in. can you pull out my key skills?

Nigel Rawlins: Even more deeply is thinking through those sorts of prompts. For example, when I get the transcript of this, I have, a series of 15 prompts that I give AI the transcript to pull out things. Now it'll pull out a whole range of things.

It'll write little articles, little snippets, find all the quotes, but then I've still got to work it. But instead of me having to go through and do all that, that's a fairly simple way of using it. But asking the right question. or giving it the right prompt to get the outcome you want does take a skill.

And that's what I'm thinking about your people, and academics as well, is, you know, most of us think, oh, write me this or give me three things. You can get a lot more out of it. And I think that's what, Stephen Johnson was talking about is to really be able to think and ask those sorts of questions.

And I think your people could do that.

Emma Williams: I think you're right in that the more humanities or thinking about sort of medical people who are more patient focused, they have spent large amounts of time in their PhDs looking at the right question to ask.

Nigel Rawlins: Yes.

Emma Williams: It's all about the right question. So they have that skill and again, they might not be able to articulate it, but they have that magic skill and therefore being able to look at a set of data, which is all AI is doing is looking at whatever you've given it, but being able to say, right, this is the killer question. They are brilliant at that. And I think knowing where to ask and knowing where to look, and understanding the limitations of data. Those are going to be big, big skills. And so for them to articulate those, and I'm kind of hoping, the arts and humanities really do see this as a skill and not shy away because it is, computer based.

I think, it's a way that we're going, so they need to, kind of play the game as well, right?

Nigel Rawlins: Well, that was my big worry, that look, I mean, I've been in business now 25 years, but I find a lot of writing about business boring as anything. and I'd much rather, read about literature or philosophy or a whole range of other topics that I love. and, you know, Universities are being pushed to, focus on STEM and business, whereas the humanities, if they connected with tech, that might be the best way to go, but we're not getting that because I think you'll find the politicians, especially in election year, just lost the plot.

I'm very angry with politicians at the moment too.

Emma Williams: Yeah, I think that's probably echoed around the world, to be honest, there, Nigel. But I'm kind of hoping, definitely, because Third Child wants to go and do Classics.

Nigel Rawlins: Okay,

Emma Williams: So the other two did sciences, and one's a chemist, one's a physics mathsy person, and then we've, we've spawned a Classicist somewhere along the line.

Nigel Rawlins: So how do people afford you? I mean, do they get grants to come and see you? Do the universities say, Hey, look, we need you to come and work with all these people?

What happens?

Emma Williams: One of the reasons where my original sort of way into this world came from was that back in 2002 there was a report by Sir Gareth Roberts in the UK that said we need these bright sparky people in all walks of life. But what they're perhaps lacking are some of the, refinement of their skills so that they're applicable to moving on in academia or moving on out.

So there is an awareness of, a sort of a skills gap or at least the translation of the skills they've got into the real world. So with that came some funding. for universities to provide, initially, it was for PhD students and now it's been rolled out into postdocs as well. So that next bracket and that has been slowly adopted.

Universities move very slowly. It's partly why I'm in business and not in a university anymore and slowly been adopted to pretty much PhD students and postdocs can expect 10 days training a year, which is funded by the university. Now, training is very broad, so going to a conference could count as training.

So universities buy me in to work with their researchers, and, that might be in a large group, like 20 or so, or it might be working, one to one. Different universities vary as to how many researchers they have. So they can come via that route or they can come individually. And I think that pricing point, is one that is interesting because people who really value that next step and value getting it right, are probably willing to invest.

Nigel Rawlins: I'm not in the business of charging thousands and thousands of pounds a day, Nigel, so I would say that I am affordable for people who want to prioritise that. I think, people have got to realize that, if you really need to, and it's difficult because there are so many people out there, selling courses. I've done some expensive courses, which were absolutely rubbish compared to the cheaper courses.

And it's really annoying. So it's very difficult for them, but as a business person, you do have to charge for your time. Otherwise you can't survive there. I mean, if I wasn't looking after clients websites, I couldn't afford to do this podcast because I have to do everything on it, so it actually subsidizes this project, or my business sponsors this project, but you've also got some online training and that's probably a bit more affordable too, isn't it?

Can you tell me something about that?

Emma Williams: So I've got a suite of online courses, which means more than two.

Nigel Rawlins: Mm

Emma Williams: And the way that I try and think about it is that I've got a ladder of offerings. The books are sort of entry level, less than ten pounds, and so, you know, kind of that's the entry. And then I have courses, that look at getting a fellowship, using LinkedIn effectively. again, LinkedIn is seen as this businessy thing, as opposed to something that is manifestly useful if you're trying to find a job.

One of my favorites is called I'm a Postdoc, Get Me Out of Here, still might have taken a little bit off, a teleprogram there, looking at moving on, successfully. And then I have one based on the business model canvas. a tool that every entrepreneur should be really familiar with.

It's such a fantastic tool, but I've taken that and turned it into the researcher canvas. So in the same way that a business model canvas looks at everything to do with the business, and you can have a play, you get your post it notes out and you cover them everywhere and you look at different ways of running your business.

The researcher canvas should be able to map out a research project. So, it'd be quite useful if you're in your PhD, but also thinking about, if you're thinking about applying for a fellowship, that you have to come up with your own project. So, again, it can help you sort of scan over everything that you need.

So, those are my four and they're priced, a bit more than the book. They're very even if I say so myself. and then we can go into sort of individual coaching. So there is that ladder of, opportunity for people.

An hour with me by yourself. we can do marvellous things. So I, one of my pet things is I love getting into someone's CV

Nigel Rawlins: and really making it shine, So that's accelerating them from, you know, if they've done your courses, they've got at least a basis that you can discuss with them, and even a couple of hours sessions, one hour at a time is probably sufficient, but yes, that's going to really give them the impetus that they require and give them some homework to go and do.

So, what you're telling me is you've written a book, you've been in business, you've got your courses, which we call passive income. And I've been trying to point out to people that this is what a lot of women in business are able to do , create their courses and sell those, run their business.

And it's quite amazing. So that's a wonderful thing. Now, the last thing, because we're coming towards the end here You're interested in archery. Can you tell me something about why are you interested in archery?

Emma Williams: How old was he? Eleven. So it was probably six, seven years ago now. he was desperate to do archery. So he's a bit of a renaissance man, that kid, he played the harp, he loves chess, he wants to do classics, and archery kind of fitted in.

Yeah, I don't know, we must have been to one of these reenactments and he'd seen longbows and various other things. So he was desperate to do it, but he was 11, so as to have a parent with you, and I thought, well, I could sit on the side and watch him and get bored for the entire day, or you could join in.

So I did it, and I absolutely loved it. It was one of those I've never been sporty Nigel, at all. I was always the last person to be picked for netball, which I hated. I did quite like hockey, that was quite good fun, but there was a little bit of fighting involved in that, largely, so it was good. But, I absolutely loved it.

It's a sport that just you and your bow. looking at a target or it might, you might be out in the forest shooting, all sorts of different ways of doing the same thing, but it's just you and your bow, very mindful. I am very, very twitchy person. I, you know, sitting, meditating is my definition of hell.

But me and my bow, you have to concentrate. on shooting. if your mind wanders off to your to do list or what so and so said or whatever, that's it, your shot's gone. So you have to concentrate. but then once you've stepped back from the line and you've shot your arrows, you've then got a community of archers to have a chat to.

So we joined, the marvelous Nether Hall Archers, in Cambridge. Really friendly club. I was chair for, a couple of years, handed that duty over, and I now help beginners myself, so I'm a beginners course. And I shoot recurve, which is the one that you would see on the Olympics.

But I have just made my own longbow. So, I went to a girls school. It wasn't a private girls school, it was just a state girls school. We did cookery and sewing, so I'd never done any woodwork. But I took myself off with the youngest to make a longbow. Absolutely love the process and have now been shooting that.

So yeah, I'm going back in time, back to, medieval longbow. And it's a beautiful thing to shoot something that you've made yourself as well. So yeah, I'm a big enthusiast of it. It's one of those sports that, you know, we can take all sorts of people, even blind people can shoot, which is an interesting one.

So yeah, I love it.

Nigel Rawlins: That sounds fantastic. Well done. We could talk about your book?

Emma Williams: Emma, at this point you need to point out you've written three books.

Nigel Rawlins: Have you?

Emma Williams: So I've worked with, on my last couple of books, the brilliant Debbie Jenkins, who's a book coach doesn't do her justice. She's a bit of a book bully, but she has a process that gets you to done with your books. So my first book I wrote with two other esteemed colleagues, and that's called What Every Postdoc Needs to Know. Kind of does what it says on the tin on that one. And we're just going through the throes of the second edition, which should be out later on this year. And so that got me into writing. I chose physics because it didn't involve writing.

And I think this is something that our careers evolve. and we can step into, our strengths that we discover along the way. I'd always thought, oh, I can't write because I'm good at numbers. And actually that's a nonsense. but I think it's taken me a while to become that sort of wise women of the tribe type thing. Perhaps that's because when I tipped over 50 that happened, I don't know. But I think we're more aware of what we want to do and we're more aware of, our skills, I think, as we grow older. I think there is also a little bit of, I also don't care what other people think, thrown into that mix.

So on the back of that first book, I then took one of my programs that I run for university, the UNIQUE program, which is aimed at women researchers, and turned it into a book so that I could reach more people. And so that one was published last year. And then this year, I'm on a roll, I published Leaving Academia, where I talk about ditching that, that comfort blanket and moving on.

And the interesting thing about that book was that I was very much writing it for my audience, but then people who've read it have said, these are some great career lessons. So I talk about the threads in that book. I talk about the way that our careers evolve and give us those more opportunities. I have very many more opportunities than I did as a 21 year old graduate.

Probably have a bit less energy, but I know what I want to do. and then I'm trying to look for opportunities to do that rather than, going, Oh, well, I'll do this job. So I think there is a certain liberation that comes with, having those skills and experiences and having enough skills and experiences that we can make those deliberate choices.

I mean you said that you've retired. Doesn't look like it from here at Nigel to be

Nigel Rawlins: honest.

No. I think my wife's really angry with me because I spend so much time working, but I'm still sort of running a business. You could say, well, I still run a company. plus this podcast, which yours is going to be the 50th.

Emma Williams: Exciting. Love a round number

Nigel Rawlins: Emma, I'll put all your books in the show notes and I'll put links to your courses and I'll put links to you in LinkedIn. Is there any other way you'd like people to contact you?

People can work with you from all over the world, can't they?

Emma Williams: Yep, the joys of the interwebs. Yep, I can happily work with people all over and have done actually. Sometimes I've been lucky enough to go face to face overseas. I've worked in, in Singapore and places, but yeah, the joys of the internet, I think, and that's another sort of liberating factor in our careers is that, we can, we can be anywhere, we can work anywhere.

You know, if I told my 21 year old self we could do this, I think I would have been making it up back when the internet was new, but yeah, brilliant. probably if you want to know a bit more about me, my LinkedIn is the best, place, which is Emma Williams Training.

There are lots of Emma Williamses. Always have an original name. That would be my, thing to tell my younger self. Go back and rename myself.

Nigel Rawlins: My last guest was Kate Toon, T O O N. So there you go. Nobody else's name. And she's English. So that's a name that you'd never forget. All right, well, thank you very much, Emma, for joining me on the podcast.

Emma Williams: It's been great fun.