Kate Toon: Digital Marketing to Business Success

Nigel Rawlins: Welcome, Kate, to the Wisepreneurs podcast. Could you tell my listeners something about yourself and where you're based?

Kate Toon: Yes, I'm based on the central coast of New South Wales, but as you can probably hear from my accent, I'm originally British. I've been here now for 25 years and these days I describe myself as a business mentor and a digital marketing coach. So I help small business owners in e commerce stores learn how to use digital marketing to create their own version of success.

Which sounds very glamorous, but it's all about managing your money, managing, you know, getting as many customers as you can, in the shortest time you can and doing that in a genuine and authentic way.

Nigel Rawlins: That's actually brilliant. So if you can help people do that, that is just amazing. All right, how do they do that?

Kate Toon: Well, look, it's, it's the million dollar question, isn't it? So, you know, my background is primarily in copywriting and SEO. So those are my kind of core skills. So making sure that people write great copy on their sites, that's really warm and engaging and doesn't meander and waffle on like I am now. And then also understanding what Google wants from us in terms of our websites to make sure that they, when someone's typing either our brand name or what we do, what we offer, we come up at the top of the rankings and we get the traffic.

So those are my core methods. But, you know, over the years I've done all kinds of marketing, email marketing, social media, events, networking, you name it, I've done it. As you know, I've got four podcasts, a couple of books, I run conferences, I speak at events. So I've tried pretty much every tactic and what I try and pass on is what worked for me and what I think will work for others.

Nigel Rawlins: Which means you've been experimenting a lot. But what, what I think is really important that you mentioned there, and this is something, believe it or not, after being in business, running a marketing services company for 25 years, I'm starting to tune into, yes, you've got to start writing better copy on your website.

And yes, you've got to start looking at SEO. So let's just start a little bit about websites. Does a person who's starting out in business need a website?

Kate Toon: Look, I would categorically say yes. I know there is a school of thought that you can survive by simply having social media profiles, Instagram, LinkedIn, but I do not want to build my kingdom on someone else's land. And I've seen too many cases where people have built up a great following on Instagram, uh, but they've not got a website.

They've not drawn people from Instagram to any kind of site or email list. And then Instagram switches off their accounts and suddenly they're back to square one. So, yes, I do think every business is Needs a website. Does the business in the first year need an all singing, all dancing website? No, you can start off basic.

Everything's going to evolve, but I do think you need a hub and something that you own and you control and you can decide whether you switch it on or off. I think that's very, very important.

Nigel Rawlins: We've had a few people from LinkedIn say LinkedIn will do it all, but maybe in the first place, LinkedIn will help, but I think you're, you're dead right about that. Okay, so what sort of website should they have?

Kate Toon: Yeah, I guess it depends whether they're e commerce or service based. I think these days all the platforms are much of a muchness. So you know, if you'd asked me five years ago, I would have said avoid Wix, avoid Weebly, um, avoid Squarespace. But now I think that all the platforms are working hard to, uh, be technically sound, SEO friendly.

They're pretty good. My preference would always be WordPress for a service based business and Shopify for an e commerce business. But if you want to play around with Wix and build a site pretty quickly, it's pretty low cost, do that. Probably a couple of years in, you probably evolved one of the more sophisticated platforms when you have the time and the money, but they're fine to get started with.

But yeah, if I could pick, I would pick WordPress. All my sites are on WordPress.

Nigel Rawlins: And I've got to agree. I look after 18 Wordpress websites, but they do need maintenance, and you do have to pay for premium plugins to keep them secure. So there's a lot of work being involved. So yes, I think, unless you've got big bucks, I suppose, to start with, you might be better off with a cheaper version or something like that.

Kate Toon: Yeah, I mean, I think whatever you do, you're going to have to pay. So if you get Wix, Weebly, SquaresSpace, Shopify, there's a monthly fee. Um, you know, you pay for themes, you pay for the more sophisticated apps, as they're called on those platforms. So you're not going to get out of paying and even, you know, you're still gonna have to pay for hosting and your domain name.

So, you know, I think people are very funny about the cost of a website. It is your most important business tool. If you're paying a WordPress developer to maintain your site, a hundred bucks a month, that's nothing. You would spend that on coffee. You would spend that on MYOB or Xero. So I don't know why people get so funny about spending a little bit on their website.

You know, I'd say put aside 3, 000 or so dollars to get a basic site built and then get someone else to maintain it for you, and then you can focus on doing other things. I mean, I have courses that teach people how to build sites, on their own, but you have to kind of really think about what you're good at.

You know, you can't get everything for free. I think there's this idea that everything should be free in business. And it's like, no, you know, if you want a premium site, you're going to pay a price for that. And that's okay.

Nigel Rawlins: I know that with the work I have to do lately, I have to write most of the content because a lot of people don't know how to write content. But then, there's the sort of content you're talking about, which is really sharp, really focused, and not carrying on. In the past, you could just get away with putting heaps of words on and then hopefully that will work, but it doesn't work anymore, does it?

Kate Toon: No, I mean, I don't think it ever really did. I think, you know, some people write content and think, well, I'm going to shove all these words on because that's going to please Google, but Google is trying to emulate the human condition. So really it's people first and Google second, even if you write dodgy copy that lures Google to your site under false pretenses.

Great. Well, now you're ranking, but people are clicking through to your site and they can't understand your content or it's boring or it's repetitive. So you should always write for humans first and Google second. And we're blessed these days with a myriad of AI tools to help us. I'm a big fan of a platform called MAGAI, M A G A I, which is a conglomerate of all the AI copywriting tools for one fee.

And while I don't think it can do a perfect job, honestly, it can get rid of the blank page and really help you. So I don't think we have any excuses these days for not having a good go at writing some decent copy.

Nigel Rawlins: That is great advice. I totally agree with the AI, as long as you send it through Grammarly afterwards

Kate Toon: And put your own personality in it as well,

Nigel Rawlins: yes, it's, it's very dangerous. I must admit, I've been using ChatGPT Plus to help me, but you've got to use really good prompts. But I've just gone back to Claude. Which I think's got really, really good.

Kate Toon: what I love about my guy is you can pick between ChatGPT, Claude, Poe, all of them on one platform for one fee, which is, I really prefer. It also does image generation as well. And the other thing I love about here, and I'm not sponsored by them, is, uh, you can pick different persona personas.

So you can write as a professor or a copywriter or a lecturer or an advertising person, and it will change the tone of your writing depending on what persona you choose.

Nigel Rawlins: I will do some exploration and I will put, I'll put that in the show notes too.

Kate Toon: I'll send you a link.

Nigel Rawlins: Oh, lovely, fantastic. All right, well, let's go back to what you were saying there that you do have to have a website, you do have to own it, and you do have to spend some money on it, which is part of your marketing spend. If you want to bring in revenue to a business, you're going to have to spend some money.

So let's talk about some of your books that you've written about, Six Figures in School Hours, Six Figures Whilst You Sleep. and your Confessions of a Misfit Entrepreneur. How do you describe a business to somebody who's setting out to want to start a business?

Kate Toon: Well, ironically, right now I'm in the process of buying a bookshop. So it's a shopfront business, but it has an online presence. And you know, what I am doing as a priority is, first of all, everything starts with money. So I know we're talking about marketing here as well, but really everything starts with money, working out a budget, looking at your expenses, your ongoing costs, your fixed costs.

And making sure that this business is going to make some money. Now it doesn't need to make huge profit, but you know, they say in Australia, like 5 percent net profit is pretty low, 10 percent is okay, and 20 percent is amazing. I'm lucky that I've been working in the passive income space, everything I do is digital.

So my profit margins are really high, but with a store, it's going to be a lot lower. So I start with money and then my next priority is always the people. Uh, you know, who you're working with, who you're getting advice from, who your staff are, keeping your people happy and your customers. And then we move into marketing.

So what I'm doing is my first steps is, guess what? Building a website, actually migrating the old website. It's on Wix and moving it to WordPress. You'll be pleased to hear, but you know, coming up with a brand name, building a website, getting my email sorted. Then I'm setting up my Instagram and my Facebook and my Google business.

The next thing I'll do is set up an email newsletter so I can keep in contact with my customers. And those are my first steps. So money, people, website, social media, email marketing. Uh, and that's going to take me a while to get all that done. And I would say that those are the same steps, no matter what industry you're in or what type of business you have.

Nigel Rawlins: And Kate, you're doing that on top of running everything you do already, plus you're a mum. And, you're being invited to speak and you're giving me some time to be on our podcast, which is, you know, an incredible stressful time. And you said it's Monday that it's opening?

Kate Toon: I'm taking over from Monday. And look, you were very nice before we did this podcast and said, you know, you'll be fine because you've done all these things before. And I think that's really important. You know, i'm nearly 16 years into my business. I know that because my son is nearly 15 and I started just before he was born.

So, I know that there are tough times, there are stressful times, but generally everything works out. You know, it may not be perfect, but it does work out. And often, you know, you lose a bit of money. That's obviously a consequence. You make mistakes, you lose money. You know, you upset people along the way, but generally, everything's workable, outable, and I have enough confidence in myself that I'll be okay.

The main issue I have, and I think this is the biggest issue for all business owners, is a lack of patience with the process and with themselves. So clearly I'm taking a bookshop over on Monday. I've done a bit of training, I've, I've cleaned out the stockroom, but I'm not ready. It would take me months to feel completely ready and I will have to learn on the go and therefore there will be mistakes.

Maybe I'll order some books and order the wrong ones and they won't sell or whatever, you know, um, but that's okay. It's fine. And as long as I can be patient with myself and learn like a child, then I'll be okay. The thing that's going to stuff it up is if I start getting sweaty about everything and want everything done today, which I generally do, but I'm trying to be calm about it.

Nigel Rawlins: Well, I would say or suggest to you that one of the things in having run your business for 16 years, I'm assuming you outsource some work as well, and I guess it's a bit like me, if I really can't be bothered doing something or I'm not going to be able to cope with several things, I'll start, what we call in Australia, handballing things out.

The other day, I used Fiverr to fix up a client's new logo, it was terribly low res. I stuck it on their website and it looked awful. So I paid somebody on Fiverr to fix it up, and they did.

Kate Toon: Re render it, yeah,

Nigel Rawlins: yeah, just to re render it.

About 20 bucks. That's not a lot of money. But I could have tried to do that myself and mucked around for an hour.

Kate Toon: Yes, it's a really important skill to know what to delegate. And so, you know, for example, with the bookshop, one of the main issues is the money, or working out how to pay suppliers and setting up my Xero and all that, I'm not very good at that. So I've hired a bookkeeper and she will do that part of it.

Then we need to set up the email marketing and I'm using my existing person on my team to help with that. So yes, a lot of it I will do myself cause I'm a big believer in learning from the ground up. Some of the staff are staying on and I could just say, well, I'll rely on them to order the books, but I like to be able to know how to do things and then choose not to do them because otherwise I'll never know if it's a good job. So there is a degree, I'm very, you know, normal sounds silly, not that I'm not normal, a normal person taking on a bookshop it would be incredibly challenging, but I have a bookkeeper. I have a web developer, an email marketing assistant, a VA, a graphic designer, an accountant who are all here already, and I can farm things out to them.

And I also have the incumbent staff who I'm going to keep on as well. So it's not, it's more like being the organizer, taking that helicopter view and being able to delegate the tasks. That's what's the challenge at the moment. Not the doing, if that makes sense.

Yeah,

Nigel Rawlins: incredibly important part of running a business is that there are actually three parts to a business. There's the operations that you're actually running. There's the marketing side of it, but there's also that financial side, and one of those operational things is you've got to be able to manage yourself. And, and you know, this is the thing I'm suddenly realizing that a lot of, uh, freelancers or self employed consultants, if they're lucky enough to get plenty of work, they do the work, but they've also got to manage themselves and get stuff done. So, do you see that happening in yourself? That you've got to put on the manager's hat and manage yourself and get all these people going?

Kate Toon: Yeah. I mean, I think one of the hardest things about running your own business is continually motivating yourself to turn up every day, regardless of how the previous day went, whether it was successful or a failure to sit at your desk every day and do the do and decide what to do and drive yourself forward is, is a real challenge.

And I think that's why a lot of people fail because they don't, they're not able to prioritize and motivate. And keep going. And my big belief, and I talk about this in my books, is I don't believe in passion. People are like, Oh, it's so great that you did a bookshop, you must be so passionate about it. No, passion will die.

I will get bored of the fun stuff in a month. I have to have persistence. I have to be able to turn up and do things when I don't want to, when there's other things I'd rather be doing. And that's been a real muscle that I've had to grow over the years. And then in terms of delegation, I think that's always a work in progress.

I am somebody that likes to do everything myself, even to the point of exhaustion, and it's really important for me to step back and go, I am not the best person to do this job just because I could, doesn't mean I should. And I need to farm that out. Somebody on Fiverr for 20 or whatever, you know, like I could do it.

I'm multi, uh, skilled like you, you know, I can do a bit of this, a bit of that. But just because I could, doesn't mean I should. It's not the best use of my time.

Nigel Rawlins: I'd rather not do everything myself. I mean, sometimes I can if it's a simple little change that a client wants or something like that. I'll zip in, do it. For example, they've got an events calendar. I'll go in and add that. But I found the most fabulous designer who just uses Canva.

Now I could use Canva, but I can't be bothered learning. That's the problem. There's so much learning curve stuff, especially with new tech. I guess one of the big issues that I have, number one issue is IT. When things don't work, and people have moved out of say, a workplace where they've had an IT department , how do you find IT, making sure all your bits and pieces work, the internet doesn't come down, the printers work?

Kate Toon: I mean, I think that's a challenge. I'm lucky enough to have a membership called the Digital Marketing Collective. And in there, there's all different types of people and there is an IT person in there. And obviously he's then able to remotely log into my computer and fix stuff. But I also don't change anything.

Do you know what I mean? So like my Mac, I could get a new Mac and it would probably be a little bit quicker, but why am I gonna put myself through that hell? I don't even have a printer. I just gave up on printers 'cause the amount of stress. So I can't print anything. So sometimes I have to email it to the print shop and get it.

I'd rather do that than be wrestling with cables on my printer. So I keep my IT minimal as well. Maybe I've, I've got about seven apps that I use and I don't introduce new ones unless it's something amazing like Magai, which is relatively new. I'm not always looking for a slightly better solution.

I'm like, this works. If it's not broken, don't fix it. Just keep going with what you've got and don't constantly look to innovate and change your IT needs because it, it, you can lose a day, you know, and internet going down, there's not much you can do about that. You've always hotspot off your phone, there's always a way, but yeah, I try to just keep things as simple and pared down as possible.

Nigel Rawlins: Now that's really important because you've, you've been in business now 16 years, and you're saying, I'm going to keep the tech really simple. Yet somebody starting out, there's all these fantastic things and you can spend days and days filling up your computer. I've got to be honest, I used to have lots of computers.

I'm just down to a MacBook Pro 13 inch. I run the whole business off that. Mind you, I have got two big screens behind my Mac, which is probably the best thing I've ever done.

Kate Toon: Big screens are fantastic. I have two screens as well. Yeah.

Nigel Rawlins: That's probably worth it, but I guess when you're first starting out, you probably don't need

Kate Toon: Oh, I mean, I, I was the first three years and this is so important. Like my first three years in my business, I had, um, um, a MacBook Air, tiny. That was all I had. I didn't have a printer. I didn't have ergonomic mouses or sexy chairs. I didn't spend money on stationary and personal development and business coaches and networking events.

I think there's a lot of trappings of a business that are actually really unessential. As long as you've got internet and a laptop, you can do, and you do our kind of thing, you can do pretty much anything. Everything else is a nice to have. Um, but I think we're constantly tempted by new plugins and apps and sexy things.

And 99 percent of them will add no new values. they'll just waste your time. Um, and I think that's really important. So what I will do is I'll adopt a new app or tool. I will use it. I'll get it, I'll use it for a month. If after a month I'm still using it, I can keep it. If not, I have to cancel that subscription.

If I'm still using it after three months, I'll move to an annual payment plan because often you get a big discount. Um, and by doing that, that's why I only have seven or eight apps. That's all I need. There's lots of other things that maybe do one tiny small thing, but you just don't need them.

Same with plugins on WordPress, right? There are literally thousands of plugins, but I just install the same seven or eight. And they pretty much do the job and, oh, that plugin just makes this piece of copy flash. No, I'm just going to learn the code to do that instead, rather than getting yet another plugin, you know?

Yeah. Anyway, that was a long waffle, but I hope you get what I mean.

Nigel Rawlins: No, that wasn't a long waffle. That was just very, very important. But just keep it simple because the, the real stuff in a business is the thinking side and spending the time to create the content and to reach out. So Kate, in your podcasts, I mean, the ones I've listened to are the SEO one and your quick tips, you seem to be able to connect with the most amazing people across the world.

How's that come about?

Kate Toon: I mean, look, that particular podcast has been going since 2016 and really the only reason I started that was because I was obsessed with Rand Fishkin who used to run Moz, lovely, lovely man. And I just wanted to talk to him, I didn't even have a podcast, so I made up the fact that I had a podcast and he just thankfully said yes.

And then this was very early on. And so the next guest I got was Neil Patel, who's now hugely famous, but they weren't massively famous then. Do you know what I mean? Rand was, he was just nice. And then since then, I've just asked a lot of people approach me. Um, you know, you get one or two good guests. I think what people underestimate is that everyone wants to be on podcasts.

Everyone does. I mean, some people are super busy and they say no, but everyone wants to show off and be on a podcast and they don't know if you have two listeners or 20, 000. Do you know what I mean? So I've never had someone ask me, well, how many listeners have you got? How many downloads do you get? And if they did, I'd be like, well, I'm not coming on.

And I would never ask that of someone else. So I'm on a lot of podcasts and I. I just ask, you know what's the worst someone's going to say? No. And then I'll just ask someone else. But I just go with the assumption that 99 percent of people love showing off and love talking about themselves. And so if you ask, they'll probably say yes. It's

Nigel Rawlins: Well, thank you for saying yes to my one.

Kate Toon: Exactly.

Nigel Rawlins: I'll be honest, I don't know how many people are listening. I know we've had about 5, 000 downloads since I've started.

Kate Toon: But you see, this is it. And people get very obsessed with those numbers. And someone will say to, cause you know, I think the recipe podcast has been going for ages. So I think we're up to nearly a million downloads over the years, you know? And people are like, Oh God, well, I'm doing it. I'm only getting 20 downloads.

And it's like 20 downloads is 20 people who are spending 30 minutes with you in their ear. That is amazing. How would you get 30 people in a room? It would be hard and it'd cost a lot of money and you'd have to pay for nibbles and champagne, but you just get to spend 30 minutes. And the other thing about podcasts is people generally listen to them when they're doing something nice.

They're walking their dog, they're cooking, they're gardening. So you're with them. And it forms a real bond. So I think people underestimate the power, even of the lower numbers. It's very powerful.

Nigel Rawlins: well that's when I listen to you when I go for my walks.

Kate Toon: There you go. And you know, you feel like you really know people when you listen to their podcast. You know, I used to love a podcast.

I still like it, but I don't listen to it as much called This American Life and the host Ira Glass. I mean, I'd take a bullet for that man. I've listened to hundreds and hundreds of hours of him. I love him, you know, and I've never met him. So it forms a really close, intimate bond as well. I think podcasts have been one of my most powerful ways of building my brand and I highly recommend them.

Nigel Rawlins: definitely, when I listen to you and you're talking to Rand Fishkin, it's like you're mates from a long time.

Kate Toon: Well, we are mates now. I mean, that's the great thing about this. Like, you know, he came on that podcast and then I met him at an event and then years later, about three years later, I was speaking at an event in the Netherlands and we were on a panel together. So my hero was sat next to me and I went for lunch with him and, uh, I know his wife a little bit as well.

And, um, yeah, you do get to know people and now he's been on the podcast five or six times. And he's just, he's also just a lovely man. And if he listens to this podcast, he'll be mortified that I'm talking about him again. Uh, but he's just a good dude, you know, and he took a chance on me when I was a nobody.

And, I think that's kind,

Nigel Rawlins: I was very lucky when I first started out. I invited a chap called Mark Goulston, who I really loved listening to, uh, because he was the most incredible, speaker or he discussed things with people that I couldn't believe how he communicated. So he came on my podcast and I was so, I guess, freaked out by it that I forgot to record it.

Kate Toon: I did that. I had the head of Google on and I forgot to record and I had to lie. I did tell him in the end, I had to lie and say, Oh, the technical equipment didn't work, but in reality, I just forgot to press record. So we had to do it all over again. Uh, and the other thing I think, and this works for businesses and for any opportunity is, you know, if you make a contact with someone at the end of it, say, well, is there anyone else you think I could connect with?

From a business point of view, if you finish up with a client saying in the final email, if there's any, can you think of one other business person who might benefit from my services? You're not asking anything of them. You're just asking them to make you one little connection, and most people will, and the same with podcast guests.

So, you know, if I don't know the person, but I know the person who knows the person, and that's why LinkedIn does come in helpful, I can say, Hey, you know, Nigel, I see that you're connected to Bob. Do you mind just connecting us both? You know, no, no expectation that anything's going to come of that, but I'd super appreciate that.

You know, very few people are going to say no to that. It's two minutes of their time. So I think you don't ask, you don't get, as my dad would say.

Nigel Rawlins: Yep, I totally agree there. I've, I've been very lucky through LinkedIn. But then again, I guess the people I have connected with are people who are doing interesting things that they're probably not that well known, but they are experts in their field

Kate Toon: You don't always just want to get famous people because famous people as well won't share the podcast as much because, you know, that they feel they're doing you a favor rather than the other way around. I think it's good to kind of reach, uh, sideways to people who benefit from it as much as you do.

And I find those people often a lot more generous with their sharing and their mentioning and name dropping and things.

Nigel Rawlins: mmm. Well, I've been very interested in talking to the Europeans,

Kate Toon: The Europeans.

Nigel Rawlins: Yeah, French and from the Czech Republic. I've, I've spoken to two people from the Czech Republic recently and they're just brilliant. Robert Vlach was one of them, he's written the book about, freelancers and he was just brilliant.

Absolutely brilliant. But I did talk to an American chap who's brilliant as well, totally different perspectives. I'm amazed at how intelligent people are when you really start talking to them.

Kate Toon: Well, this is it, you know, and through my SEO podcast in particular, I've probably spoken to 200 SEO experts around the world. And it's been both educational, I've learned a lot, but also really validating because you know, when you're working on your own, doing stuff, you can think, do I really know what I'm talking about?

And then you talk to someone else about a topic and they're saying everything you would say and you're like, great, that's such affirmation. And also it's like I've had 200 hours of business coaching, every guest I pick one or two little things up from, maybe an app that they mention or an idea.

And it's just such an amazing experience. So I get as much out of it as I think it benefits the marketing. I get a lot out of it personally as well.

Nigel Rawlins: I think that's important. Well, you mentioned SEO. Maybe we should just talk a little bit about that. We talked about having their own website. Talked about having good content. Let's talk about what is SEO and why is it still important in the times of AI and things like that?

Kate Toon: Well, look, at the end of the day, SEO is really just about making search engines fall in love with you and your brand. And generally in Australia, we talk about Google because it has 95 percent market share. And we generally talk about Google worldwide because it has about 85 percent market share. It's also the most sophisticated search engine.

So if you make yourself findable on Google, you'll be findable everywhere else. Other big search engines would be YouTube. It's the second biggest search engine, but also Facebook is a search engine, LinkedIn, TikTok, they all have an interface where you can type a keyword and then the backend connects you with contents.

So everything's a search engine. So search engine optimization is really about, I like to use the analogy of the show, The Bachelor. Have you heard of The Bachelor where the guy or the girl goes in and they've got 30 people to choose from and they're handing out roses, Google is handing out roses. You've got 17 websites all wanting to rank for, you know, recyclable coffee cups.

How does it decide who to give the rose to? Well, it looks for certain factors. We think there was about 200 of them and it goes, well, you know, this site has checked off 47 of the factors, but this site's only checked off 12. So we're going to give it to the other one, right? So it's knowing what those factors are and then doing them.

And doing them in the right order, knowing that this one's going to make a big difference and this one's not going to make much difference at all. And that's kind of what I teach on my courses is just what to do. You know, like, where do you start? Uh, we covered off one of the main things, which is what website platform you choose.

No websites are SEO friendly to begin with. But some platforms make your job a bit easier. WordPress was built to be SEO friendly. So it's easier to make a WordPress website SEO friendly than some of the other platforms. And then there are a lot of other factors as well, which I'm more than happy to talk through.

Nigel Rawlins: Well, that's the other thing too. If you've got a website, you put it up, it's not going to suddenly appear on Google.

Kate Toon: No.

Nigel Rawlins: You've got to start with the SEO, but it can take how long before you start showing up? If then,

Kate Toon: Yeah, I mean, I think SEO comes across as quite dodgy. We all get emails saying, Oh, your SEO is bad. We just have to ignore those, by the way, they have not looked at your site. Um, really it starts with coming up with a memorable and relevant brand name. Because to begin with, most people will be finding you through recommendation, you know, so I'm lucky I'm called Kate Toon.

It's an unusual name. Um, that's where people are going to find me first. So using that name in my domain or in my copy is, is important. And then after that, it's just thinking really from a human perspective, does your site look good on a mobile phone? How long does it take to load? You know, does it look good?

Can I get to all the pages or do I keep on getting to broken links and things? It's obvious stuff, you know, have I got a big pop up on my homepage, which covers the whole thing up and I can't click off it, you know, that annoys humans, that annoys Google. So when I take people through the priorities with SEO, no one's like, Oh my God, I can't, I can't believe that that's a factor.

They're like, Oh yeah, that makes so much sense, of course, of course, that's going to impact people visiting my site. So. SEO is a lot of common sense, to be honest. People think it's technical, it's changing all the time. It isn't, and it really doesn't. So it's much easier than people think.

Nigel Rawlins: I have to agree about WordPress being really good with SEO, because there are a number of SEO plugins that work very well . I've got to admit, last night I was wondering why is this website that I look after, his website doesn't get a lot of clicks and I'm like, what's going on? And suddenly I realized I'd had a button on there, no index.

Kate Toon: Yes. in WordPress, that's very easy to do. You'd be surprised. I had somebody who, um, had a website up for an entire year with that clicked. And so all their efforts, all their blog posts, everything had not worked. So it's very easy to do. Don't feel bad about that. I see that happening a lot.

Nigel Rawlins: No, I couldn't believe it. So I said to him, well, this month we'll see how it goes. I'm working with a medical specialist. He's moved a clinic to Melbourne a lot of competitors in that area. And we're trying to start showing up.

So I'm saying, okay, well, we have to really modify your website. Things like that go on. So how do you suggest to people? Okay. You're coming into a competitive area. How are you going to start working on your SEO and your content to maybe start getting some movement in about a year's time?

Because it's not always going to be six months, is it?

Kate Toon: No, I mean, I think it does start with, you know, picking a good platform, having a well built technically sound site. I think, as I said, brand name is very important. You know, in any business, usually the first year your customers are people who know you or who know people who know you. After that, I'm a big believer in personal branding.

At the end of the day, if I line up two companies and both have the same experience and do the same thing, it will often be the personality or the vibe of the company that I respond to more than the logos on their website. So, you know, they like cats and they like dogs. Well, I'll pick the dog person cause I'm a dog person, right?

So a bit of personal branding, I think goes a long way. That's how you can create standout and relationships in a very crowded market. So yeah, that would be my recommendation. Personal branding.

Nigel Rawlins: Okay. So let's just. Quickly talk about personal branding there. Personal branding means the person, really. Maybe using their name in the domain name. Now, branding for a company is quite different. For example, mine is called Wisepreneurs, so that's like a company branding. So, there's a bit of a difference between personal branding and a company branding.

How would you look at that?

Kate Toon: To a degree. I mean, look, I think even though you're a company, there's still a person running that company and generally the values and the ethics of the person running the company will become the values and the ethics of the brand. People buy from people, not brands. So you see this even with big brands like banks, you know, they try to pretend that you're talking to Sue at the end of the phone and their emails come from Sue.

Now we know it's actually a call center with thousands and thousands of people who probably aren't called Sue, but they're trying to make a personal connection. So even if you do not have an eponymous brand, you are still a personal brand. Even if you are a company of 70, 000 people, there is still a head of that company.

Think about Apple. Who do you think about when you think about Apple? You think about Steve Jobs, right? I mean, he's gone now, but you do. If you think, and some brands that had names like Bing Lee or Harvey Norman, the person has gone, but the brand ethics are still that person.

Usually there is a figurehead and in these times you cannot hide behind your brand. So, corporate brands are still personal brands. It's just harder for them. It's easier for you because people realize that you've called yourself Wisepreneurs, but they know who you are and they know there's not 70, 000 people in your company.

So you are Wisepreneurs. It's synonymous. It's the same thing. That's what I think anyway. Yeah.

Nigel Rawlins: Let's go back to marketing. And we were talking about, visitor numbers, say, to a podcast. You might not get a lot of people listening, but 20 is sufficient, website might not get a lot of visitors. I, I have got one client that's a fairly big company in a regional country town. Their minimum charge is about 300, 000.

How many visitors do you think they need a month to their website? Hmm.

Kate Toon: Well, I think again, you know, websites are a hub and they are a sense check and they're a validation. So, somebody who's in that kind of region will be submitting capability statements and proposals, and they won't be trying to get people to come over from Instagram. It's a whole different game.

But if I'm about to spend 300, 000 with you, I want to go to a website. I want to see you are who you are. I want to see your portfolio, your clients, who you've worked with before. And I want to make sure that you're legit. So it's still an important aspect and it's still competitive.

Like if you are trying to get a 300, 000 pitch through, well, there's probably two other companies pitching for that and you've got to beat them. So yeah, still important.

Nigel Rawlins: So, going back to the smaller one person business, maybe a consultant or independent professional, they don't need a lot of visitors to their website, they just need the right ones.

Kate Toon: That's it. I mean, you know, you have to work out how much money you want to work a month, how many customers it's going to take to make that. And then how many customers will you get? You know, we say the average conversion rate for everything is 3%. So if a hundred people visit your site, three of them might convert.

So you know, if you need three new customers a month, you need to get a hundred visitors to your site. How'd you do that? You know, that's how you have to think about it. It's all a numbers game.

Nigel Rawlins: Alright, let's just go through your books then. Who are they for? So six figures in school hours, how did that come about?

Kate Toon: Well, look, honestly, it's a bit of a, it's not a very, uh, aspirational answer or inspirational answer. I've published three books prior to that, self published. I really wanted to have a proper book in my mind. A book published by a publisher, that was in the airport. Sounds really lame, doesn't it? Really egotistical, but I wanted that experience of walking into the airport and seeing my book.

So I came up with a pitch that I thought would sell, and I could have written about SEO or copywriting, but who really wants a book on that? What average person wants that? Nobody! So instead I thought, What have I done well that other people struggle with? And I think it has been balancing my family with my business.

I only work 20 hours a week. I do a lot in that time. I feel I have a great relationship with my son as good as you can with a 15 year old, grumpy lump, but it's pretty good, right. Um, and I've managed to stay working at home and not commute and all those things. So that's why I chose that topic.

So it's aimed at parents who want to maintain a great relationship with their kids, but also trying to run a business, maybe from home, maybe not. Um, and the horrible struggle of feeling like you're doing a bad job at both. So that was the idea for that one. Yeah. Oh,

Nigel Rawlins: very important. Six figures while you sleep.

Kate Toon: Well that, I think, is a bit more targeted. It's really, I could have called it something around passive income, but it's become again a bit of a cheesy phrase. You know, there's different ways to earn passive income. You buy shares, you buy a property. You become an angel investor in a company, or you lease something that you own, your car, your house, right?

None of which appeal to me, to be honest. And all of those require you to have a big lump sum of money to begin with, which, you know, back then I didn't. So this book is about turning your services and your skills into one to many products. So instead of servicing people one by one, you create something once, And you sell it to many, so perfect example for a WordPress developer would be right now, you know, you've got people that you help, you build their site and then you've got maintenance packages and then probably do some coaching as well.

Could you make a mini course that helps people do some part of the process on their own? And people are averse to this because they're like, well, I'm going to cannibalize my actual customers. But some people will never have the money or the inclination to pay you. So you're, you're moving from done with you, to do DIY. And then also in between that is done with you, where there's a bit of DIY, but you're also there to back people up and help them if they get stuck. So that's what the book's about.

Nigel Rawlins: That's really good advice. The last one, I can't understand why you use this term. Confessions of a Misfit Entrepreneur.

Kate Toon: Well, that was my first book. So I wrote that back in 2017. And that was just really, you know, even back then, it's only seven years ago, but there was this idea of what a business owner should be. This is pre COVID, remember? So you should have an office. You should wear outfits. You should be presentable all the time.

You should be serious and professional and be on LinkedIn. And I just found all of that so restrictive. And so I wanted to show there was a different way that you can work in your pajamas, in a shed, in your back garden and build a multimillion dollar business without wearing a pencil skirt and being professional.

That you can use humor, you can be odd, um, you don't have to be consistent, all those things. So it's about being unconventional and contrary. And I wanted to show people that that was possible, rather than just the traditional business route.

Nigel Rawlins: I think that one's really important. Well, when we finished, I'll be able to put my dressing gown back on. No, unfortunately, some of my podcasts are seven o'clock in the morning to deal with the Europeans, and I'm still in my pyjamas.

Kate Toon: Totally. I do Zoom calls in my PJs and in bed sometimes because that's my life. And you know what? Most of the people I work with, it's their life too. And it's actually a relief for them to say, sometimes I do these SEO calls and I'm like, look, it's a late call. If you need to turn up in your pajamas or eat your dinner while we do the call or have a glass of wine, you do that.

No judgment. Your kids can come in and out, no judgment. Right. And that is a relief for a lot of people to just be able to be themselves and run their business. I actually have tried to limit the amount of late stuff I do because I'm just not my best self at that time. But you got to do what you got to do. And you've, you know, like you're still eating, that's really important. For a long time, I used to just work, work, work.

And now it is about trying to squeeze in real life in between. It's a bit harder, now I've just bought a bookshop, but I will find my equilibrium again and make sure that I am going to the gym and doing the things for me and that I don't compromise my life, work to live, live to work, all that kind of thing.

Nigel Rawlins: All right, we'll just talk quickly on that bit where you said you go to the gym. So how do you look after yourself physically and mentally?

Kate Toon: I'm not doing too well at the moment, but when I am good, I, yeah, I do go to the gym very early in the morning and I take my son. I always walk my dog. I generally finish each day at about three. I don't know if that's just because of years and years of school pickup. My son is now 15. He doesn't need me at that time, but I still mentally can't go on.

Um, I try not to work at weekends. I don't really work. I have one evening call a week for the Europeans, again, like you. But I really just try and have boundaries. They will be messed up over the next few months cause I'm going to be working in the store, which is now going to be working like a six day week, but I don't think it will be for forever.

Sometimes you have spurts where you work hard and then you have chill times and I do try and take time off. So I'm heading back to the UK for a month in June and luckily with a digital business, I can manage that elsewhere. So yeah, I try to just have as much balance and boundaries as I can.

Nigel Rawlins: Okay. So is there anything you'd like to cover that we haven't covered?

Kate Toon: Gosh, no, I think we've covered a lot. I think people will be exhausted. Wrapping up I think, you know, my main thing is to be patient with yourself, and realize that we're here for the long term, and that your to do list will never be finished and your inbox will never be empty, and that that's a good thing.

Nigel Rawlins: Yep. And what I'll do in the show notes, I'll put your books, all your courses and where they can find you.

Kate Toon: A great thing is I'm pretty good at SEO. So if you type Kate Toon into Google, you'll find something of mine and be able to start your adventures.