Natasha Ginnivan: Reshaping Perceptions of Aging and Longevity

Nigel Rawlins: 0:42

In this episode, we explore how cultural attitudes shape our perceptions of aging with Natasha Ginnivan an Australian researcher specializing in this field. Discover practical insights on longevity, combating ageism, healthy aging, and redefining retirement for continuous growth. Natasha also shares her initiative. Edgy Elders promotes positive aging through conversation and stylish products.

Welcome Natasha to the Wisepreneurs podcast. Could you tell us something about yourself and where you're from?

Natasha Ginnivan: 1:15

Oh great, Nigel. Good to be here. So I'm Natasha Ginnivan. I'm a researcher. I live and work between the Blue Mountains and Sydney. And I research aging and attitudes to aging.

Nigel Rawlins: 1:28

The first thing I notice about aging is it's spelt differently in different parts of the world. So which one do we use in Australia?

Natasha Ginnivan: 1:36

I use the spelling with E because that's what we've learned and grown up with, but occasionally I will use E. without the E, A G I N G because on LinkedIn posts or social media posts, a lot of people are used to using the other spelling as well.

Nigel Rawlins: 1:52

Yeah, that worries me too because often when we write things or write articles or put things into social media or somewhere they'll often search using a search term. So I don't know how the two spellings will work. So tell me something about aging. You've been studying it now. So what made you want to study aging and tell us something more about that?

Natasha Ginnivan: 2:14

Thanks for that question. I'll try and give the executive summary. I used to be in my first career a fashion designer. I used to work in product development when I first came out of high school. Yeah, I did like a TAFE course and then I worked for a decade in product development in the sort of volume side of things. And then as I approached my thirties or early thirties, I was needing something else. I think we go through transitions and changes, we get older and find meaning in different things. So I went back and studied psychology at UNSW and I was a, mature student in my thirties, comparatively to everybody else. But I came across one of the first projects I did was on implicit attitudes to aging and cultural attitudes to aging and learnt about stereotypes and things like that. And so that sparked an interest then. And then I just went on to do an honors year and was fortunate to be able to study a PhD in psychology and Aging at School of Population Health in at ANU, the Research School of Population Health. But I was also funded by, at the time, there was a Centre of Excellence in Population Ageing Research who was interested in all different kinds of dimensions around ageing or, the sort of economic impacts, the social impacts health impacts. And so I fit into the cultural attitudes or attitudes to aging that really impact the way we view aging. And quite often our views of aging are harbored below the level of conscious awareness. So a lot of the stereotypes and attitudes to aging are very automatic and we probably don't have an accurate view of aging because of that, because we tend to lump, into categories of young or old rather than this sort of lifelong process of transition and change that's very individual and we become very different from one another and diverse as we get older, but we're fighting a stereotype that says we're all the same. You know what I mean? But anyway, that's a long, that's a long answer, but that's how it sparked my interest from that very first topic. And then I just kept studying it and then I guess in some ways tried to incorporate my own sort of desire to have meaning and purpose and things like that. Yeah.

Nigel Rawlins: 4:38

One of the problems I have with aging is What is old age? When is somebody old?

Natasha Ginnivan: 4:44

Yeah. Look, that, that's a question that, um, it comes with different dimensions. I, look, I think from a, I would say policy perspective, we somehow think that 65 is the retirement senior's age because that's attached to policy and things like that. But as we are living much longer, there's longevity, we're living up to our eighties and nineties now. And so we, 60 is young or 65 is young, but having said that, I, again, I don't really feel comfortable just looking at age from those binary, that binary of young versus old. I think as a society, we're still hung up on that. Like our attitudes have not kept pace with this longevity that we've been blessed with. And I think, transitions like life across the life course. And if we're lucky enough to have that long life, it's going to be full of four or five or six or more major transitions. And so that the old sort of model that a lot of people in this space talk about and learn and retire. It just doesn't really fit anymore. And I think our institutions, our attitudes struggling to keep up with this longevity that we have.

Nigel Rawlins: 5:58

That makes me think about the books, the 100 year life that Lynda Gretton and Andrew Scott wrote saying that the traditional model is the three stage life. You go to school, you go to work and you retire, and then you spend a lot of time. And and I think the audience to the Wisepreneurs podcast is probably in, in the part where they're probably post work, but they're starting other careers or continuing their career to work in other areas too. But there's a whole lot of things involved in that. And was one of the reasons I want to talk to you about is how we actually age. I remember talking to a chap a couple of years ago I've got the seniors card because I'm over 60, and I was saying to him, isn't the seniors card good? And he looked at me and he said, when can you get one? And I said, when you're 60. And he said, oh, I've got a few years. I thought the guy was about 80. He looked so old. And that's the problem. Some people can look old at 40. And that's the thing we're up against. I just started Krav Maga this year, which I really love. I exercise a couple of hours a day. I walk as much as I can, and there are people like me out there who are still reading, working in their late sixties, seventies. And then there's others who, aren't.

Natasha Ginnivan: 7:11

Sure. The thing is also is I think part of our attitudes to aging are pinned to some degree to appearances because we're socialized that way. Print, whether it's magazines, whether it's online, whether it's movies, we very much attach the idea of, young and old to appearance. And, there's something around, bit of opportunity to self reflect and say It doesn't matter if whether we look old or younger and I think we're not really up to that stage yet. I think we still very much attach appearance to whether we look young or look old and we're still fighting against that. And that probably whether we look or feel or are old frail or not perhaps, shouldn't really define whether we can still contribute to life, have purpose have meaning, have relationships, all that kind of stuff.

Nigel Rawlins: 8:08

Yeah, that's one of the issues when you look at somebody, and they look old, you're saying that for some reason, in our culture we're not feeling that they're up to scratch or as capable as say younger people. But the problem I find with that is some younger people don't have the wisdom that the older have or nor do they have the patience.

Natasha Ginnivan: 8:31

Yeah. Look, that's a really good point. And in my sort of, research and looking at age stereotypes to some degree it cuts both ways. Sometimes we stereotype younger people. But also, when we're young, it's impossible to be, wise from day dot, isn't it? So we learn, we learn from experiences and become wise by those cumulative experiences and knowledge. But there's a really great quote, I think it's Oscar Wilde who says, wisdom comes with age, but sometimes it comes alone. So it doesn't mean that because you are older or that you're going to be wise necessarily. And then again, there are some people who have wisdom beyond the years as well. But in general, I think you're right. I think that, obviously, if you're blessed enough to have a longer life, those cumulative experiences of whether it's tragedy, trauma, heartache, all those things tend to give somebody more of a sense of what life is about and gives you wisdom.

Nigel Rawlins: 9:35

Let's have a talk about healthy aging. Is this an issue that you're involved with?

Natasha Ginnivan: 9:40

My studies haven't been as directly involved with the health side of it. I do have colleagues who look at brain health and dementia and, even like physio and, what are the kind of predictors of, what's going on with of health not drinking too much and not having too much sugar and getting good sleep, don't smoke, all those sorts of things. I've been in aging research enough to know what predictors are of good or poor health or longevity. Interestingly, one of the main drivers of longevity is social connection, actually, above all the other health tick box things. But yeah, so it's, it, I'm indirectly involved in healthy aging, but predominantly my focus is on attitudes, which does impact your expectation of aging actually.

Nigel Rawlins: 10:29

Maybe we should talk about cognitive health then. Is that an area that's of interest to you as well?

Natasha Ginnivan: 10:35

Yeah, it's definitely of interest to me. I'm not an expert in dementia, but I know a little bit about factors, high risk factors for dementia.

Nigel Rawlins: 10:42

Yeah, because that's the biggest fear as we age. Like I'm 68 and I'm thinking I'd hate to get dementia because it would just stop everything I'm enjoying doing. So one of the things I am interested in through healthy aging and longevity and stuff like that is, is being able to continue to work professionally and therefore keep my cognitive ability, be able to think clearheaded.. And you mentioned alcohol before. I've virtually given up alcohol because that really creates a brain fog the next day. And I'll be honest, I got a bit bored with my business several years ago. So I took a part time job just to get some time out. And I worked in a liquor store. And it horrified me, the amount of alcohol that people bought. And you'd see the same people every day. And so I'm just wondering, I know that's an issue. I finished that a couple of years ago and so I'm full time doing what I'm back to doing, but that cognitive health is just so important. And so what can you tell us about that?

Natasha Ginnivan: 11:41

As I mentioned, I'm not entirely an expert, but the things I do know about the relationship with alcohol and brain health is that apparently you can have a very small amount of wine, I think, from like the Mediterranean diet type thing that's the best diet. And I think a little wine is okay. But beyond that the copious amount of alcohol, I think as a nation that we have, probably doesn't help our risk factors for good brain health. I think that alcohol and then just sugar in our diets and salt are probably very big no nos I would say for trying to maintain the brain health as we get, older.

Nigel Rawlins: 12:25

So to really age well, I guess what we've got to do is have a look at what we're doing to ourselves.

Natasha Ginnivan: 12:30

Yeah, look, there's that, but on the other hand, I would just also say that, sometimes, yeah, addiction to something like alcohol there's an underlying issue to that as well. So we often, we need to look at like the stress side of our life as well and what's causing us as a country to be so inebriated and want to have to drink all the time. So that would be what's underneath the behaviors.

Nigel Rawlins: 12:56

As we're living longer, it's pretty obvious that if you started drinking as a young person and it's become a habit, suddenly, 50 years later, or even 20 or 30 years later, you've been drinking for 20 or 30 years. It must be affecting them and I guess part of our cultural understanding. It, it must be hard. So what are some of the attitudes to aging that you're studying?

Natasha Ginnivan: 13:19

I would say my initial kind of, thesis and research that I did was looking at different cultural attitudes. For example I contrasted Australia with the Philippines and did some focus groups and surveys. I chose the Philippines because it's a collectivist culture and I also have Filipino heritage myself. And I grew up with, on my mother's side, but at least far more intergenerational connection. With aunties and a big family. And it's interesting that there's there is this sort of sense of elder respect if you like, but it's hard to describe. It's not in the way that like we think, just because you're older, you automatically get respect. It's more about in such a close collectivist culture where you're much more tied intergenerationally, and involved with each other, it's a mechanism for keeping group harmony and reciprocity and things like that. And it's hard to describe exactly in our Western, sense of, how we should be between generations. But on the other hand, in, sort of Western cultures, we tend to be quite age segregated both in our kind of societies, families and things. We have extended family, but we don't have as much connection with older people through our life course. And so I wanted to understand if you grew up with more people older than you around that you had a quality relationship with, would this impact your attitude to not only your own aging, but aging in general? And I found with my research both qualitatively in focus groups and quantitatively via surveys using these validated scales about culture and attitudes that was validated by the World Health Organization that there were significant differences that if you did grow up with those more sort of collectivist culture, intergenerational connection and had, more positive, attitudes or views you did in general have better attitudes to aging. But in my survey, it wasn't just to say that it was only Filipinos because they're collectivists that had better attitudes. I also found that the Australians who are higher on that score of collectivism or their attitudes were more collectivist, like in their approach to generations, had better attitudes. And there is other research aside from mine that shows that if you have better quality relationships with older people in your life, then of course it's going to impact the way you view yourself as you get older or, how you view other older people in general.

Nigel Rawlins: 15:57

I think that's a very interesting point and a very important one too, because I know that I came from England as a young child with my parents. When I had my children, my parents moved up to Queensland, up where it's lovely and warm, and we rarely saw them. So we had to make an effort to get up there, and it's a bit hard when you've got three kids to go to Queensland. So they separated themselves, but I've noticed that my children, Got three grown up children. One lives in Canada, one lives in Melbourne, one lives locally, but he's about to take off around Australia. So I will rarely get to see them. I can talk to them, it seems to be the thing, I don't know if it's in the West or in Australia, where we just go our own way and we're often on our own and I can understand when somebody's older, especially men tend to die younger than women. If that's the case, and you're a woman and you're older, you're probably living on your own. And unless you're lucky, you've got friends around you. We are very different in Australia, aren't we?

Natasha Ginnivan: 17:01

Yeah. And I think, it's not one's better than the other. It's just, that's the nature of the way they're socially organized. That's just how it's worked out. But I think that, perhaps attitudes to aging have become more negative as we've ironically gained more longevity. Our attitudes to aging have become more negative. Back before pre industrial age or whatever we tended to still be a little bit more in these family groups, but then, as the industrial age grew and technology came, you had to go where the work is. So you just brought your kids along and, you can't have the whole clan. And and then of course the, going back through history the printing press and books and things, and we don't really rely so much on the wisdom of elders or storytelling and things like that as much as we did. And and and then I think now we've gained a lot. Look, it's not to say that these things are bad, they're good. On the one hand, they have strengths, but on, that saying like the greatest strength can be the greatest weakness as well. I think also now we're exposed to these age stereotypes that infiltrate like our lives and even, storybooks and cartoons and things like that. Children as young as four have already formed age stereotypes before they've even gone to school.

Nigel Rawlins: 18:17

It's funny, my my wife has a four year old grandchild who, is quite an independent little one. Was reading since she was two, constantly wants to come and stay with us. On her own, without her parents. And she does. She's quite interesting in that regard. She's got some sort of connection there. Alright, what about work? People working who are in their 60s and maybe 70s is it possible for them to still work or is ageism working against them?

Natasha Ginnivan: 18:45

I would say it is possible and I would also say that yes, ageism is working against even over 50. My colleagues and I a few years ago did a scoping review to see what types of evaluations and programs are in place to reduce this level of age discrimination that happens to people in their 50s and 60s. So on 70s and older. And what we found after reviewing both literature, academic literature and reports and grey literature and things like that, that trying to find programs that have been seriously trying to evaluate how to reduce this issue because obviously the last decade we've had a lot more in the equity, diversity, inclusion space, but not for aging really. That's still lagging. And what we found from this scoping review was about 17 studies that really looked at it in, in on how to, measure and chat, track and change because you can't change something that you don't track. And there's only 17 studies across the last 30 years. So given the prevalence of the issue, we only have 17 studies, many of them using college participants, which isn't really serious. It's well, it is serious, that's a good study, but you don't have it in the workplace. You don't have people in the workplace trying to actively work on how to perhaps do job sharing or make sure that, age diversity is included within your EDI, things like that. So it is a big barrier. And it's something that I think as a culture, we really need to take a look at and not do it in a way that's subsidizing companies that decide that they'll, begrudgingly take on someone in their fifties and sixties. Just be inclusive and understand that people who are older have a lot of experience to offer. And a lot of, as you said, wisdom, they might need some flexibility, but there's not something that like you can't offer as a business.

Nigel Rawlins: 20:44

I noticed if I go to the local supermarket, there's often people working there who are obviously in their 60s. Sometimes they're a bit older, but, most supermarket jobs are part time. And so that's obviously flexible for them, but the supermarkets are, and even at Bunnings, a big hardware chain in Australia hires older people as well. And if you can get hold of one, cause they're all busy they know what they're talking about.

Natasha Ginnivan: 21:09

Yeah. I love it. I love that Bunnings actually, they actually have a dedicated sort of quotient for people hiring people, in their 50s, 60s, 70s. And I believe they have, people working there even into their 80s. And a while ago someone in their 90s working there, Bunnings. So they're an exemplar, I think.

Nigel Rawlins: 21:29

I think we'll talk about that in a moment too. All right. One of the things, obviously the Wisepreneurs podcast is about Independent professionals. It's people who have a professional qualification. They want to work for themselves and they can be any age. For example one of the ladies I spoke to Hazel Edwards recently 78 an author said she's cut her working hours down from 60 to 35 hours a week. She's written 200 books and she's quite involved in her work and her writing and presentations. She's written another book that she's about to publish shortly. So we have professionals out there who have looked after themselves and have got some good qualifications but don't really want to retire, even though they might have retired from the workforce. What do you know about that sort of cohort?

Natasha Ginnivan: 22:16

Yeah. There are lots of people who, you know, whether they're doing paid work or unpaid work wanting to bestow their knowledge also learn new things that, that doesn't automatically stop in our, sixties or seventies or what have you. In fact I would say that, retirement, the idea of retirement perhaps needs a reframe. Not to say that like those who want to, finish that sort of nine to five really hard, type of work can't. But I would say that we need more institutions, whether it's TAFE or university, that kind of allows people to reskill in a vocational way, perhaps in that transition from, the nine to five type work to, to a vocation or something, a new skill that they've always, wanted to learn. I knew someone in the fashion industry who was tired of, doing the nine to five work, or later type role and went and did a florist course and then, did that and then had their own business in the 60s kind of thing. My, my cousin actually is a really great example. She actually she lives in the Philippines and worked as a lawyer for the Asian Development Bank for a very long time. And in the last probably five years of her work, she really loved dog training and, dog behavior and helping people train their pets. And so the last five years of her kind of career as a lawyer at the ADB, she after work, she'd get changed into her chinos and her polo and she'd go and start doing this dog training. And then, basically on the last day of her work after 25 years, she just, got into her gear and she just stepped straight into this other role that she transitioned to. And I'm not saying like it's so easy, but I think that people can do it, but I think that they're not set up, we're not set up well in society to help support that transition. And I think that The book The Hundred Year Life that you mentioned before talks about the need for institutions to really start providing this type of support. And that type of support starts with the mentality and a reframing it and reframing transitions from, midlife into later life.

Nigel Rawlins: 24:31

I think that's really important because I purchase online courses all the time. I don't always get time to do them, but there are ways that you can learn and they don't have to be expensive either. Some of the online courses are fairly cheap, but I guess you'd have to have access to internet and stuff like that. And in local communities, are you finding that there is some sort of retraining programs out there that would help people, say, transition from work and maybe to find something else they could do, even if it was voluntary?

Natasha Ginnivan: 25:01

I have to say, I don't think I've seen a lot of that because I'd probably be like onto who's doing it and what are the outcomes. And I know that there's the U3A, the University of Third Age, for example. I'm not entirely sure if that's sets up for training for new skills or anything. Probably does. I haven't had as much involvement. But I know that, people who are quote unquote retired and want to continue to learn can access the University of the Third Age. I don't think that our mainstream institutions perhaps are doing as much around lifelong learning as they could. I know that in the U. S. although, it's quite a, an elite university, Stanford, but they've got a lot of stuff on longevity and just a distinguished career institute where I believe younger and older people are paired to learn from one another and mentor one another. And I think that these sorts of things, multi generational learning and transitioning and all that kind of stuff really needs to be brought in as a mainstream thing into our universities. I know that the University of Queensland, for example, is part of the age friendly global network of universities in the Southern Hemisphere and the only one in Australia. And they're actually partnering with myself and some colleagues. a study that we're doing on, on, on actually trying to improve the attitudes towards towards older workers. So I think the answer is that yes, people are doing it individually. And I think that's gonna help, help with the shift. In the mindset, because they're showing people that it can be done, but it would be great if as a society, we just got on board and said, you know what, we're living much longer now. We've got to do away with these age stereotypes that it's all about decline. It's not to say that aging isn't about decline. We know it is eventually we decline and die, but it's happening much later now. So we've got a good portion of our that we are really squandering because of poor attitude.

Nigel Rawlins: 27:08

Yeah, I think that's, that is my biggest concern because I think when you're younger you think you're bulletproof and it takes a while to start finding, Oh, I don't know, is it women who are finding themselves feeling the problem more because they start to look older and then they're starting to spend money on products to try and stay younger and men don't really care. Is that, that an issue?

Natasha Ginnivan: 27:29

That's a whole other podcast about the way that sort of, I would almost say the lie that women are sold that they have to look young all the time.

Nigel Rawlins: 27:37

I love working with women because they're so smart and they actually work. And some of them, I do work with some men but most of the women they communicate really well, they get stuck into the work and things happen, which is really fantastic. That's why I love working with them. And and obviously my cohort that most of the women I'm working with now are in their 60s. And I fit in where I fit in. It seems to, I've become part of their team, I suppose you could say. Yeah, but it does concern me that women are feeling it more, I think, than men. And I don't know if that's Australian men, they don't really care.

Natasha Ginnivan: 28:14

Look, I don't think it's Australian men. I think I think overall I don't want to just say Western culture because, beauty is a universal thing. But I think in Western culture, I'm going to say that we do, it's getting a little better, but there is this sort of double whammy for women, this sort of a twin prejudice of ageism and sexism, right? That kind of creates double the barrier, I would say for women. And then, and it's not just my personal opinion, there's research that supports that. There's a lack of media representation for women of the age of 40, as I said, it's getting a little better but traditionally we still have this this view that women need to look 25 their whole lives. And so there's a billion trillion, I don't know how many dollar business, but of women trying to meet that expectation, unfortunately.

Nigel Rawlins: 29:03

I think it is unfortunate because the women I work with are so smart. And they're in their 60s and it would be horrible if they were being ignored and not listened to. I recently spoke with a lady in her 70s, very highly qualified professional. And she was doing a consulting program and she saw something wrong and she said, look, there's something wrong here and they didn't want to know. Because they had an ulterior motive which is really sad. And that's the difficulty that they have, you can be in your seventies, have the expertise but be ignored because they don't necessarily agree with you. And yet, the person could have 40 years of solid experience at a very high executive level.

Natasha Ginnivan: 29:48

Look, I think there's a lot of things, there's a lot of dynamics going on, but, stereotypes is a predominant thing. Ageism and sexism, combined is an unfortunate negative force that women have to deal with. But also, as we get older and this is, I think, quoting Gloria Steinem is a very prominent feminist, but as we get older, whether you're male or female, but females in particular, we are more vocal, we just say it like it is. And there's this sort of like expectation that women shouldn't be speaking their mind for whatever strange reason. So when they do, it's it's met with like dismissal and, diminishing and whatever other things. I've been listening to The Wiser Than Me Podcast. Have you listened to the wiser than me podcast with Julia Louise-Dreyfus? It's a really good one actually. It's just come out a couple of years ago or maybe it was last year when I came out. Yeah. And she interviews all these sort of older women and Gloria Steinem was one of them.

Nigel Rawlins: 30:49

Wow. I don't think I'm going to get some of those people on my podcast.

Natasha Ginnivan: 30:52

You might, you never know.

Nigel Rawlins: 30:53

My difficulty is finding I and anyone listening who does know somebody who's in their late sixties and seventies and eighties who's still working could just contact me and I'd love to interview them. I have reached out and asked, but. It's hard to find them, but it's also hard for me to find Australians to talk to. I find it easier to talk to people across the world, no matter where they are, than to find my Australians that I can talk to. So let's have a little talk about aging and technology. Is that an issue?

Natasha Ginnivan: 31:21

I, I. I would say the attitudes around that are an issue. And I know people who have worked in technology who are being pushed out in their 40s and 50s because they're, again, it's the stereotype that you're some, young digital native as if older people can't be digital natives or learn technology either. My, my partner's a tech reviewer. He writes about tech and he's all over technology and he's in his fifties and he knows how everything works immediately. There is this problem in that industry that we pair technology with youth and that's ridiculous because technology has been around, and advancing so much in the last decade and that we're all using it now. I find it really a little bit annoying and insulting when they say they're surprised that people in their fifties and sixties or seventies know how to use technology. My dad's 80 and he has emails and social media and uses laptop and phone perfectly. Sure. Some older people don't like technology and, but they can learn it if they want to. It's not that they can't learn technology. Older people, I think there's research that shows older people can adopt technology. Sometimes if it's new to them, it might take a bit longer, but they can learn it. They're not, it's not that they're not capable of learning technology. Sorry, that's my rant.

Nigel Rawlins: 32:44

Oh, no, that's good. One of the issues I have is that when people do leave their work and they want to work for themselves they don't always understand the technology because they've had IT support in the business they've been working in. They've had an awful lot of support there, but when they go to work for themselves, they don't have that anymore. There's a real gap.

Natasha Ginnivan: 33:03

I would say that might be the case, but I would probably say that younger people that don't have the IT tech support might also struggle.

Nigel Rawlins: 33:11

Yeah, I had some real issues trying to connect up multiple screens to my Mac. I use a MacBook Pro and now I've got three screens behind me plus the MacBook Pro, but trying to get them all to work together, it just takes ages to find it out. Whereas it would have been nice if there was somebody, cause I live in a country town out of Geelong, it would have been nice to have somebody local to come around and, Oh, you need this, and this. I guess older people are not going to require what I require. So another issue too, is, I think one of the things you mentioned is'a built environment'. Is that an issue that you see out there, the environment that we live in? It's not always suitable for older people.

Natasha Ginnivan: 33:51

Yeah, look, I think that universal design is a great thing, right? If we approached public spaces with the lens of universal design such that whether you're older or maybe have a disability could be able to access that space, then everybody can access that space. And, I think that there's some good examples of that type of approach. But I think we don't really have enough such that we could call ourselves having age friendly cities and things like that, and I think what that leads to is not only obviously the concern and the higher risks of falls or things like that, then, but what it leads to is social isolation, right? People don't want to come to a place where there's minimal lighting, the footpaths aren't, maintained and, and the parking is non existent or too expensive. It's astounding that we've known for the last two decades that we've got this thing called population aging, right? Where we're all as a population getting older and yet we still don't have this front of mind when we're building things and facilities and stuff. Like I said, there's some examples, good examples of that, but as a whole I think we could be, doing a lot better.

Nigel Rawlins: 35:05

I agree. I got rid of my car. My wife still has her car. I prefer to use the bus. Now I am in a small country town, so the bus doesn't go too often, but I can get to Melbourne. I can take the bus to the station, get the train to Melbourne, and believe it or not, it's about$4 during the week, and I love that because I get to read, whereas if I had to drive I just get so bored driving. But I can understand as I get older you just get a little bit more frightened that, you might have some problems or something, or somebody might not be friendly to you and things like that. So you can understand that, but, you're stuck with the public transport and you hope that it's going to be safe and you hope that it's going to be clean. And I guess that's the other issue too is the stereotypes. You're an old person. And I know now that I'm starting to look a bit older and I'm I work really hard on my health, but I just know that when I look in the mirror, I'm not the same as I was when I was 50. One of the areas you work with is with prisoners and coming back out into into the world. So can you tell us something about that? What are some of the issues that they have?

Natasha Ginnivan: 36:10

Yeah, so some of the research that I've done at UNSW was on the aging prisoner population. Um, And obviously, when we talk about built environment when they're in prison it's a whole other issue, but coming out it's very hard for people who are older and haven't been integrated into society, particularly if they've been in prison for 10 years. And then, we talked about the rate of technology and it's the speed of technology and also just knowing the systems change all the time, whether it's to do with how to connect to Centrelink and what's required and whether can do it online or go to the office and then pushing everything out into digital now. And then, just social isolation and and health concerns are big problems for this marginalized population. Yeah.

Nigel Rawlins: 37:01

It must be pretty hard, I'd say. And especially if you're isolated from family. I would think that would be very difficult for them. And what ages are they coming out?

Natasha Ginnivan: 37:09

That, that varies a lot. From the research that I've done, there's actually quite a not quite a few, but there's a few different kinds of experiences for older prisoners. Some have been in there for a long time, others have had difficult sort of lives. And been in touch with the justice system since they were young and been cycling in and out of prison, or there's been violence in their family, in their life, and so somehow they've ended up, being in, in prison, or there's people who perhaps have committed crimes when they were younger, but hasn't been found until later, and this type of thing. But what we know is that there is a premature form of aging when you're in that sort of group of marginalized populations.

Nigel Rawlins: 37:54

That must be pretty hard, I think. Especially finding somewhere to live and then, and being able to earn some money. It must be difficult.

Natasha Ginnivan: 38:04

Yeah. Yeah. It's very hard. Particularly, prisoners who were released during the pandemic, it was hard for the whole population was shut down and there was no networks there at all. It was very difficult. Yeah.

Nigel Rawlins: 38:15

Now we're probably coming to the end of the podcast, is there something else that you would like to talk about? I was going to ask you about Edgy Elders, so tell me about edgy elders. What's that?

Natasha Ginnivan: 38:25

When I finished my postgraduate studies, I talked about cultural attitudes and so on, there was just so much that I felt we needed to talk about and shift and the Edgy Elders ended up being something that sort of hangs off my blog, Mobilizing Wisdom, and I initially started with the blog because I had so much to say about different things about aging that I just started putting them into blog pieces and then started interviewing other people who are talking about aging and trying to essentially disrupt age stereotypes. But in that also the sort of inner work, self reflection component, that often comes with maturity and as you get older. And it's really wanting to disrupt attitudes, transform a little bit, give people some sense of what positive aging looks like. And then Edgy Elders came along because I always had the idea that I wanted to put something out there in a tangible way that would start conversations, whether it was just like a cheeky bumper sticker or a t shirt or something. And so because my background initially was fashion, I just thought I'll just be easier to put together a little line product. And that's what I did. And it hangs off my my blog, which you can read about stuff, but you can also go onto the little shop or I do markets as well because I like to have conversations in person with people about some of the attitudes, like just the conversation I'm having with you. I sometimes have little snippets with people at the markets.

Nigel Rawlins: 40:03

That's great. I had a look at that website. The t shirts look fantastic, but I might buy one of those bags. They look great too. Some fabulous products. Natasha, thanks for joining us. How would you like people to connect with you? I will put all this in the show notes where your blog is and where Edgy Elders can be found. But how else would you like people to connect with you?

Natasha Ginnivan: 40:27

Oh, look they can find me through my blog, I've got like a little contact or, or Edgy Elders. And also I just just to mention that I, I am giving listeners a discount with the discount code that I've given you, which I've put edgy friends 24. And that's for the next month that they can get 10 percent off any of the products. And I might see you or at listeners at some of the markets Leura markets, Paddington markets that I sometimes do on weekends.

Nigel Rawlins: 40:55

Thank you for being on the Wisepreneurs podcast. It's been great talking to you. And I look forward to talking to you again.

Natasha Ginnivan: 41:02

Thank you, Nigel. It's been a pleasure.